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Why Jobs Flash explanation doesn't make sense

madhatter61

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Mtnmedic said:
Look folks, Flash is a FEATURE. iPad lacks that feature (frankly it doesn't NEED it and it's better off without it). Just like it lacks the feature of a USB port. Or an SD card slot. SO. FRIGGIN'. WHAT.

If you don't like that the iPad doesn't have these features and/or others, then take it back and get a Xoom, a Playbook, a Galaxy Tab or wait for some vaporware and quit yer bellyachin'. THAT'S the choice you get. Why settle for less than what you want? Apple is not required to put Flash in because YOU and a million other people want it. It's THEIR product and they'll put features in according to their own research for product effectiveness and efficiency as well as that brought on by customers' suggestions.

I, for one, DO wish Apple would make a Flash-enabled iPad...JUST ONE...without any other changes to the device, to prove to the world once and for all that Flash will have a negative effect on two of the iPad's biggest success points: performance and battery life. And put this whole, stupid Flash argument to REST.

Michael "Spam, spam, bacon, eggs and spam. Hold the bacon and eggs." Sent from my iPad 2 using iPF

Some of us love the iPad but tink it's unfair not to have flash. Even if flash is a closed system and might make the iPad work harder it really think apple are not implementing if because then everybody could play games , watch every tv channel , watch movies uploaded on a lot of websites , basically they would loose more then 50% of the AppStore and iTunes customers the first day flash comes out .
So don't get me wrong but the lack of flash makes it less of a laptop replacer .
Let's just hope every one would implement html5 as soon as possible ... Right Tim?:))

Sent from my Blackberry...nah...just kidding
I just pulled up Google, typed in Skyfire ...watched the YouTube video showing features... $4.99.

Have you tried it. For $5 it seems like it might serve your needs. How do you know ... just risk $5. Until you try a potential solution ... why keep whining.
 

DrHouse

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pawnslinger said:
This is caused by large organization standards adoption. It is a mentality that some large organizations use to adopt a standard. Once adopted, it is darn hard to change, and stifles all innovation.

I am retired, but my son works at a large organization, and they have adopted Flash as their standard for application and web design. He lobbied strongly against it, but the bean counters won out. So now they use Flash for all their web pages, whether it is needed or not. And they have adopted a style for all their web pages too... UGH!

In the end, decisions are based on two factor: it looks cool and it's easy/fast to create web content. Marketing people look around to see what's hot, then go to the Director saying that for a good look, Flash should be used. Director ask his dev team about the use of that technology for web content and is being said that the ROI is interesting on the production level. No need to consider the browser as all is managed by the Flash plugin and the development will go faster since the tools provided are almost point and click...

So in the end, it is really hard to convince a business with arguments like official standards, purity of the development cycle and being prepared for the future... But now with the iPad effect on the market, maybe things will eventually change...

VicoPad addict!
 

tzimisce

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DrHouse said:
In the end, decisions are based on two factor: it looks cool and it's easy/fast to create web content. Marketing people look around to see what's hot, then go to the Director saying that for a good look, Flash should be used. Director ask his dev team about the use of that technology for web content and is being said that the ROI is interesting on the production level. No need to consider the browser as all is managed by the Flash plugin and the development will go faster since the tools provided are almost point and click...

Yes and no. It depends on what exactly marketing's requirements are, and how well-versed they are with technology and trends. I've been building and delivering interactive websites for over 14 years (since the internet 'went public', basically) and seen how technology has evolved firsthand, and using best practices to get the job done. For example, Flash doesn't lend itself easily to CMS-based dynamic web content, and thus by extension CRM systems as well. It's not impossible to integrate Flash into a CMS-CRM architecture, but it has to be done selectively and carefully, otherwise it'll end up with higher maintenance overheads compared with other alternatives.

In projects I've worked on where we research and submit our technology solution recommendations for approval prior to (re)building a website, there are a LOT more factors than just how cool it looks and how easy it is to build content, such as cost of ownership (both start-up and long-running costs), maintainability, portability, scalability, extensibility (how well it integrates into existing or future platforms), ability to be "future-proofed", etc - and not once has Flash ever made the cut as one of our technology options. Other marketing depts may run differently, of course, but not the ones I've worked with.
 

DrHouse

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tzimisce said:
Yes and no. It depends on what exactly marketing's requirements are, and how well-versed they are with technology and trends. I've been building and delivering interactive websites for over 14 years (since the internet 'went public', basically) and seen how technology has evolved firsthand, and using best practices to get the job done. For example, Flash doesn't lend itself easily to CMS-based dynamic web content, and thus by extension CRM systems as well. It's not impossible to integrate Flash into a CMS-CRM architecture, but it has to be done selectively and carefully, otherwise it'll end up with higher maintenance overheads compared with other alternatives.

In projects I've worked on where we research and submit our technology solution recommendations for approval prior to (re)building a website, there are a LOT more factors than just how cool it looks and how easy it is to build content, such as cost of ownership (both start-up and long-running costs), maintainability, portability, scalability, extensibility (how well it integrates into existing or future platforms), ability to be "future-proofed", etc - and not once has Flash ever made the cut as one of our technology options. Other marketing depts may run differently, of course, but not the ones I've worked with.

I hear you on this. I should have specified that I was mainly talking about the visibility aspect and not about specific web solutions.

VicoPad addict!
 

madhatter61

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Ok, one more! ;)

The issues with flash are: snip

Anyway, I didn't do this to be mean or to fight over it. I'm gonna try to stop posting on this subject. I'll give iSwifter or the other one a try.

I know no one thinks so, but I think Apple will be faced with a tough choice in the near future. They will either have to open up or be relegated back to "niche" status.

You have my vote to stop posting on "Apple not supporting Flash" This has been beat to death in this thread.

I know you want to sell your display desires ... but to say the second part of just becoming a niche is not close to logical ... just re-read the Finanacials on Apple for the last quarter, and that was a non holiday quarter. Many waited for iPad2. Now Apple can't make them fast enough.
And you call Apple being relegated back to "niche" Status. You've got to be kidding. Yes, "no one thinks so" to quote your own statement.
 
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tzimisce

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DrHouse said:
I hear you on this. I should have specified that I was mainly talking about the visibility aspect and not about specific web solutions.

VicoPad addict!

User interface and user experience design has to be *part* of the solution, isn't it? For sure, there are a lot of technical considerations that go into research and solution design, which marketing and other business people don't always understand or care about, but ultimately the most important thing is - everything we build has to deliver business value. So if they want a certain degree of interactivity or dynamic content, we can design and build all that - just that for everything they (think they) want with Flash, we can find other ways of doing it.
 

Mtnmedic

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Christmas, 2031:

Flash FINALLY gets to hang out at Steve Jobs' house.

Michael "Spam, spam, bacon, eggs and spam. Hold the bacon and eggs." Sent from my iPad 2 using iPF
 

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Thphilli

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My opinion is that mentality has a lot to do with the situation with Flash today. The bean counter rule. It is also why we need people like Steve Jobs to push things into a situation where even the bean counters can see the folly of worn out technology. It also helps when the CEO gets mad because he cannot check the company website out on his iPad.

So wait, google tries to launch a competing music and movie service to itunes and you say they are arrogant and stepping on toes and should just follow along with everyone else, yet when apple completely doesn't support a major part of the internet experience today you hail them for their arrogance and for stepping on toes and not following along with everyone else. LOL.
 

madhatter61

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Romanr ... I can understand your desire for flash. I was reading Daring Fireball this a.m. which I frequently do ... and noticed info from Andy Ihnatko (other tablet contenders) and his take vs John Grubers summary. It is all about stability and battery life and the desire to make the iPad platform really perform well. Flash is an old technology that is somewhat unstable and Adobe has apparently proven it can't or won't fix it. So Apple took the approach to support alternatives. It seems to be working, but those that can't live with the poorer flash alternatives will just apparently have to rant ... but I doubt it changes anything. The "magic" of iPad seems to be what the majority want. They are standing in line waiting for the biggest backlog problem of the century. Interestingly, Apple is spending $11 billion on parts to insure they can better meet the growing demand. Their profit line is showing with big smiles.

Fun reading your rant... like so many others ... like they will really make any impact on the outstanding demand for the iPad over all the other wannabe's... not really.

Just an opinion. have a nice day.
 
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akintomide

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madhatter61 said:
Romanr ... I can understand your desire for flash. I was reading Daring Fireball this a.m. which I frequently do ... and noticed info from Andy Ihnatko (other tablet contenders) and his take vs John Grubers summary. It is all about stability and battery life and the desire to make the iPad platform really perform well. Flash is an old technology that is somewhat unstable and Adobe has apparently proven it can't or won't fix it. So Apple took the approach to support alternatives. It seems to be working, but those that can't live with the poorer flash alternatives will just apparently have to rant ... but I doubt it changes anything. The "magic" of iPad seems to be what the majority want. They are standing in line waiting for the biggest backlog problem of the century. Interestingly, Apple is spending $11 billion on parts to insure they can better meet the growing demand. Their profit line is showing with big smiles.

Fun reading your rant... like so many others ... like they will really make any impact on the outstanding demand for the iPad over all the other wannabe's.

Just an opinion. have a nice day.

And I say this is my best reason to forget this no flash regrets. Thanks.

Sent from my iPad using iPF
 

Seadog

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So wait, google tries to launch a competing music and movie service to itunes and you say they are arrogant and stepping on toes and should just follow along with everyone else, yet when apple completely doesn't support a major part of the internet experience today you hail them for their arrogance and for stepping on toes and not following along with everyone else. LOL.

There you go again, trying to provoke an argument with me. You would know perfectly well, from my posts that I have no issue with Google being a competitor to iTunes. Competition is good in most cases. My objection was with how Google tried to dictate to the media companies. Now they have alienated the labels and made negotiations worse. OTOH, Apple is reported to be close to announcing their own cloud music storage system, with the blessing of the major labels. Google cannot sell music without the labels being willing to sell through them. Google has hurt themselves more than anything else. Amazon is facing legal challenges due to doing cloud storage without approval from the labels, but at least they are already locked in contracts to sell the music. And Amazon has set back cloud storage systems several years due to their major screwup.

There is a difference between telling someone they are a drunk, and telling them they are not allowed into your party while they are drunk.
 

Thphilli

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There you go again, trying to provoke an argument with me. You would know perfectly well, from my posts that I have no issue with Google being a competitor to iTunes. Competition is good in most cases. My objection was with how Google tried to dictate to the media companies. Now they have alienated the labels and made negotiations worse. OTOH, Apple is reported to be close to announcing their own cloud music storage system, with the blessing of the major labels. Google cannot sell music without the labels being willing to sell through them. Google has hurt themselves more than anything else. Amazon is facing legal challenges due to doing cloud storage without approval from the labels, but at least they are already locked in contracts to sell the music. And Amazon has set back cloud storage systems several years due to their major screwup.

There is a difference between telling someone they are a drunk, and telling them they are not allowed into your party while they are drunk.

By "dictate to the media companies" do you mean negotiate a contract bringing a new service to consumers? So you are basically mad at Google for trying to negotiate a deal with labels. . .

Unless you have some inside information, which you don't . . . .
 

Seadog

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What is new about what Google is negotiating? What am I suspose to be mad at? If Google does not negotiate with the labels, we still have Apple's iTunes and Amazon to buy media from and they both will both have cloud storage. Apple has managed to negotiate with the labels, so why are the talks with Google going backwards? You are so anxious to prove Google is the big hero, that you are not seeing the facts.
 

Seadog

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This is the company who's former CEO, Eric Schmidt, described Google's approach this way: "There is what I call the creepy line. The Google policy on a lot of things is to get right up to the creepy line and not cross it." The problem is that Google keeps crossing the line, both on the creepy and legal scale.
The latest example is a Department of Justice report that Google lied about having the proper government security certification when it applied for a multi-million dollar government contract to sell its Google Apps for Government product to run email and online collaboration services for the Interior Department.
Mounting Legal Issues: The FISMA investigation follows just one week after Google agreed to a settlement with the Federal Trade Commission over charges that the company used deceptive tactics and violated its own privacy promises to consumers when it launched its social network, Google Buzz, in 2010.
On top of lying to the Interior Department in applying for a contract and "privacy misrepresentations" to customers in the Buzz launch, you have the accumulated accusations of antitrust violations and Congressional calls for followup investigations against the company. These complaints range from manipulating search results to shut out competitors, violating customer privacy for anti-competitive purposes, and exclusive deals to undermine competition. The Federal Trade Commission and Department of Justice are already jockeying over who will lead the antitrust investigation of Google, even as Congressional leaders push for investigations, individual U.S. states are launching their own investigations, and Europe already has an antitrust inquiry moving forward.
Global Wi-Spy Privacy Investigations: And then there's the Wi-Spy scandal, where Google snooped on millions of individuals' private emails and other personal information all over the world with Google Street View cars accessing information through private wi-fi routers. Not only did Google track, street-by-street, each wi-fi SSID name and MAC addresses for routers, they were scooping up full emails, instant messages and other data.

Other countries have already investigated Google and a number have convicted and sanctioned the company for its privacy violations.
France last month found Google guilty of significant privacy violations through its wi-fi spying and fined the company for its actions.
The United Kingdom concluded that Google's actions was a "significant breach" of the U.K. data protection law and required Google to sign a binding commitment to prevent future breaches and agree to an audit of its data protection practices.
Authorities in Spain, Canada, New Zealand and other countries have made similar findings, leading each to conclude that Google's conduct violated consumer privacy rights.
In May 2010, German prosecutors based in Hamburg opened a criminal investigation into Defendant's conduct.
This January in South Korea, police seized hard drives from Google and found Google's Street View project had "harvested and stored hundreds of thousands of e-mails, instant messages and other personal data," including consumer passwords and consumer data, from 600,000 South Koreans,

When police anywhere are displaying your hard drives to the media like bricks of cocaine (see linked picture from South Korea), your legal problems are spinning a bit out of control.
Coverup and Stonewalling: Adding to the anger at Google's actions have been a pattern of shading the truth and stonewalling when pressed for answers.
When Google first launched Street View in May 2007, it promised that "Street View only features imagery taken on public property." But people rapidly began complaining that Street View images were showing intrusive images.
Google never mentioned plans to monitor any kind of electronic communications, and then when authorities discovered in 2010 that Google was collecting more than pictures, Google stonewalled investigators with minimal information.
Then Google claimed that it only collected "fragments" of such data. And when authorities began finding complete emails and other personal data in Google's data collected from homes, Google then argued that a single engineer was to blame for the global privacy breach against millions of people on six continents.
And then it turned out Google had filed for a patent years ago to -- guess what? -- use accessing personal information on home wi-fi routers as a tool to strengthen its geolocation mapping systems. So the Wi-Spy concept was hardly the brainchild of a single engineer at Google.
When Google was caught in February collecting social security information from children participating in its national "Google Doodle" art contest, it just helped fuel further outrage.
How Bad it Could It Get? Google's whole business model is utterly dependent on trust -- on people and businesses trusting Google with their data and with the company being trusted as a fair arbiter of search results. If that cracks, whole sections of its business might fall apart.
In Germany, the backlash against Google's Street View project has been so strong that 240,000 Germans demanded the company obscure their homes from its database. InfoWorld's Ted Samson chalks up Google's continual rule skirting and lawbreaking to a "startup culture" where the company still has "insufficient internal checks and balances to prevent the powerhouse that is Google from inadvertently doing damage to its customers, its partners, and itself as it wields its might."

This only mentions a few of the mistakes that Google has been making. In addition, LA is suing Google for its part in a new information distribution and communications network that is months behind its contracted due date, with no final conclusion in sight. It is so bad, that it is affecting the ability to prosecute and sentence criminals. If Google gets destroyed by its failure to act responsibly, then there goes Android and many of the good things it has achieved.

The one thing that actually ticks me off about Google is their use of legal, but unethical shuffling of funds, known as the 'Double Irish' or 'Dutch Sandwich' to avoid paying $3.1 billion in taxes.
 
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kevbo

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All big corporations will have legal trouble. All big corporations use tax tricks. You won't have a big corporation if you don't game the system. But really, does any of that affect you, the end user? The "Wi-Spy" issue was really characterized incorrectly in your post I think. It was a very small block of data that was supposedly an error and was addressed quickly. Didn't they find it on their own? Maybe not, I don't know to be honest.

What does concern the user is Apple's secret caching of location data, which they have still not addressed after almost a week and was followed by a revelation that law enforcement has known about it since iOS 4 came out. For years it was a talking point of people who like Apple against Google, but now it turns out that Apple's behavior was worse in this regard because it is secret, has no opt-out, and stores infinitely more data (arguable I guess because it's sent back to Google, but iOS data can be traced back to you because it's on your phone).
 

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