No more iPads?

[Bennettb]

Whoops, meant "they"

 

[Seadog]

I have dealt with unions all my life. From a once proud function, they are becoming a dinosaur. A few unions are changing their role in manufacturing, but most are not. It is that reason that they are under attack and becoming less relevant. It is no longer an effective tactic to strike every time a demand is wanted, because companies will finally get tired of it and relocate. This subject is not with unions, even though they play a part in why companies relocate to China and other countries. One of the big issues that manufacturers have with unions is the inflexibility of contracts. If a company needs to transfer 200 workers from assembling one product to another, or change their job descriptions, they should not have to wait on a union's permission.

And, my knowledge of China is fairly decent for a westerner. In case you are interested, I have lived and worked in Asia. I even speak a little Korean. Can you say the same? I make no claim of intimate understanding of their psyche, but I can follow their rationale. The Chinese put little value on life compared to the West. Slowly, by dealing with outside their borders, and from being able to get images of life in other countries, things will change. Just do not expect overnight changes. That becomes a cultural attack on their nation, and the leadership will resort to violence and suppression. It took China decades to recover from the cultural wars, and there is still much that has been lost to them forever.

 

[idave23]

I have dealt with unions all my life. From a once proud function, they are becoming a dinosaur. A few unions are changing their role in manufacturing, but most are not. It is that reason that they are under attack and becoming less relevant. It is no longer an effective tactic to strike every time a demand is wanted, because companies will finally get tired of it and relocate. This subject is not with unions, even though they play a part in why companies relocate to China and other countries. One of the big issues that manufacturers have with unions is the inflexibility of contracts. If a company needs to transfer 200 workers from assembling one product to another, or change their job descriptions, they should not have to wait on a union's permission.

And, my knowledge of China is fairly decent for a westerner. In case you are interested, I have lived and worked in Asia. I even speak a little Korean. Can you say the same? I make no claim of intimate understanding of their psyche, but I can follow their rationale. The Chinese put little value on life compared to the West. Slowly, by dealing with outside their borders, and from being able to get images of life in other countries, things will change. Just do not expect overnight changes. That becomes a cultural attack on their nation, and the leadership will resort to violence and suppression. It took China decades to recover from the cultural wars, and there is still much that has been lost to them forever.

Well you're right about one thing. This issue is not about unions. But then you're the one who injected them into the conversation right? As for your view of them your obvious bias explains all that need be said.

And as far as your "knowledge" of China? Living in Asia and speaking "a little Korean" hardly qualifies you as knowledgeable on issues of China. I'll clue you in on something: all Asians are not alike. At least your disclaimer of any intimate understanding of the Chinese psyche is accurate. Because if you had any you wouldn't make a statement like "The Chinese put little value on life compared to the West". Seriously? That's just about the most insulting, blatantly ignorant thing I can imagine anyone saying about another group of people. And you're worried about someone else committing a cultural attack on their nation? And, I hate to break it to you, but the Chinese have been dealing outside their borders and getting images of other countries for quite awhile now. You make them sound like they're back in the Dark Ages for crying out loud. I guess maybe that's when you were living in Asia and acquiring all your knowledge of the people.

 

[exile]

I even speak a little Korean. Can you say the same?

I don't want to get in the middle of this but I did notice that question when glancing through.

So yes, I can say the samething; because I am Korean

Now, to the point why I wanted to post something.. what do you guys think about Foxconn's Jumper Nets?

If you have no clue what that is, search and you'll find out. Pretty interesting what goes on there...

 

[idave23]

I don't want to get in the middle of this but I did notice that question when glancing through.

So yes, I can say the samething; because I am Korean

Now, to the point why I wanted to post something.. what do you guys think about Foxconn's Jumper Nets?

If you have no clue what that is, search and you'll find out. Pretty interesting what goes on there...

The nets are ridiculous. Instead of doing the human thing and talking to their employees and trying to find out exactly why they might want to kill themselves, and then attempting to rectify that situation as much as possible, they take the coldly practical step of just trying to prevent them from doing it by jumping from their buildings.

 

[idave23]

All the pressure may be paying off:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/technology/foxconn-to-raise-salaries-for-workers-by-up-to-25.html
It's a step in the right direction at least. I'm not here just bashing Apple for it's business practices. I understand they need to make a profit. And that comparatively they are better than many. But that doesn't excuse them from continuing to keep pressure on their suppliers like Foxconn to do even more to treat their workers more humanely and pay them a decent wage, especially when it's common knowledge that that's not always the case.

 

[Kaykaykay]

I have dealt with unions all my life. From a once proud function, they are becoming a dinosaur. A few unions are changing their role in manufacturing, but most are not. It is that reason that they are under attack and becoming less relevant. It is no longer an effective tactic to strike every time a demand is wanted, because companies will finally get tired of it and relocate. This subject is not with unions, even though they play a part in why companies relocate to China and other countries. One of the big issues that manufacturers have with unions is the inflexibility of contracts. If a company needs to transfer 200 workers from assembling one product to another, or change their job descriptions, they should not have to wait on a union's permission.

And, my knowledge of China is fairly decent for a westerner. In case you are interested, I have lived and worked in Asia. I even speak a little Korean. Can you say the same? I make no claim of intimate understanding of their psyche, but I can follow their rationale. The Chinese put little value on life compared to the West. Slowly, by dealing with outside their borders, and from being able to get images of life in other countries, things will change. Just do not expect overnight changes. That becomes a cultural attack on their nation, and the leadership will resort to violence and suppression. It took China decades to recover from the cultural wars, and there is still much that has been lost to them forever.

I'm Chinese and think you're way off, but I don't claim to speak for a nation.

 

[Seadog]

I have a lot of respect for the Chinese, but to judge them by European standards is absurd. And I dang sure do not mix up my nationalities. In fact, to identify China with a single culture would be a mistake. And what they do is based on centuries of advanced civilization and world events. Most of the Asian nations hold many different ways of dealing with their issues that we do not comprehend. I do not agree with many of their policies, just as I do not agree with many of our own policies. I do not like that we manufacture so much in Asia, and particularly China. I have gone on record many times that I think it is a big mistake. My concern is how they treat their workers, and national security issues. Whether or not I like it, I understand the reason companies relocated to Asia and other countries. I am also glad that many smaller companies are now moving operations back to the States because they moved overseas as part of the bandwagon, and found they should have studied the situation better.

One of my biggest problem with Asia have to do with ecology issues. It would scare most people to see the effects of damming the Yangtze at Three Gorges. And the effects of poor nuclear plant design in Japan have created both ecological and financial issues. As for the remark about Chines attitude about life, the evidence is there. China has dealt with being over populated for a long time. It is a logical attitude to understand that there are more events that would be acceptable for risking lives rather than expensive equipment. And any look at the limited data available about mortality rates for Chinese industries, particularly mining, would prove my case. I like to think that this is changing, but it will take time.

I have heard that evidence was release Friday in the Proview case that shows Proview Shenzhen stated in an email that Proview Taiwan was the company headquarters and had the authority to deal for all subsidiaries, including the Shenzhen office. This was a lie, but Apple did not find out until after the fact. Chinese law is complex, but I like to hope that Apple will win this one.

 

[Good karma]

Another thing why it is cheaper to produce apple (or other devices) in china is because china have plentyful mineral thats called rare earth thats needed to make the devices. If production is moved to US the prices will rocket and become un saleable. Brazil also have these rich minerals but china always out prices them and there fore have an upper hand in attracting japanese and american investments. Worse come to worse, apple wont be able to sell ipad in china, the chinese buyers have to do with iphones and ipod touches, and mac books

RIP Steve Jobs 

 

[idave23]

An interesting article on Foxconn/labor in China that confirms much of what's been said here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/20/t...ange-at-chinas-electronics-giant-foxconn.html

One passage that seems especially germane to the discussion:

“This is the way capitalism is supposed to work,” said David Autor, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “As nations develop, wages rise and life theoretically gets better for everyone.
“But in China, for that change to be permanent, consumers have to be willing to bear the consequences. When people read about bad Chinese factories in the paper, they might have a moment of outrage. But then they go to Amazon and are as ruthless as ever about paying the lowest prices.”

 

[Kaykaykay]

An interesting article on Foxconn/labor in China that confirms much of what's been said here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/20/t...ange-at-chinas-electronics-giant-foxconn.html

One passage that seems especially germane to the discussion:

Something along the same lines that forced changes years ago:

Consumers flocked to Walmart for lower prices, so Target was forced to squeeze prices to be more competitive. One of the results was cuts in what used to be better benefits for workers. So some people ended up without insurance, for example.

 

[idave23]

Something along the same lines that forced changes years ago:

Consumers flocked to Walmart for lower prices, so Target was forced to squeeze prices to be more competitive. One of the results was cuts in what used to be better benefits for workers. So some people ended up without insurance, for example.

Yes, it seems workers usually end up paying the price.

 

[Kaykaykay]

Yes, like this:

One former executive described how the company relied upon a Chinese factory to revamp iPhone manufacturing just weeks before the device was due on shelves. Apple had redesigned the iPhone’s screen at the last minute, forcing an assembly line overhaul. New screens began arriving at the plant near midnight.

A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/b...d-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=all

 

[Kaykaykay]

This kind of exploitation of workers doesn't mean, by the way, that Chinese workers don't value sleep. Saying that Chinese don't value life is like saying that regular Syrians don't value not being killed for protesting a bad government. These are examples of the powerless being exploited or otherwise put down by those in power. Americans don't value being cheated by Wall Street, for example, but it happens because of weak protections and limited choice. We're all vulnerable to being exploited by those with more power than us.

 

[eKindom]

your subject scared me.
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