Latest "Obnoxiosity" from Apple

[sjleworthy]

Until you see pictures of your kids in an advertisement because you didn't realize that by using a cloud service on someone else's server you signed away your rights to your intellectual property. It doesn't effect you until it effects you.

I keep a prepaid debit card tied to my iTunes account since Apple states they will not reimburse you for any fradulent activity. Some hacker on the smae unsecured wireless network at Starbucks steal your login and buy $500 worth of music? You'd better hope the credit card companies terms are more forgiving than Apple's cuz they don't have to credit your account one cent.

Sent from my Android 3.1 Motorola Xoom Tablet!

but thats a quite paranoid attitude, besides, im talking from a personal point of view, not for all in-sundry. i havent a clue about other people's paranoia.

any cc fraud and my cc company re-reimburses me.
photos of my kids online? not much i can do about that whatever. if Apple scan or browse my personal cloud data then i dont care personally, and nothing i can do about it anyway. it's up to me to be vigilant on what i personally do online.
again, these are daily perils of 'living' online. i deal with it, but no, i give none of it any thought. and reading a 50 page document that i wont understand wont make me any the wiser or happier wont achieve a hill of beans.

besides, i dont have kids or take photos

 

[Wookiee2cu]

They have already done this several times. They do it to cover their butt which is understandable, I just hate it when they hide little nuggets in there like they expect people to read all 42 pages of it. They should have a section in the very begining the just covers new info.

 

[Wolfpuppies3]

To the OP

Yes. So what? We all did. New users agreement. You choose, agree or disagree.

That was easy.

 

[graywolf]

Yes. So what? We all did. New users agreement. You choose, agree or disagree.

That was easy.

-

 

[extendedforecast]

Of course almost no other store, online or not, reimburses you for credit fraud. It's all through the Credit Card companies. They may, or may not, seek a refund through the store, but you personally only deal with your card company.

Not that I'm arguing against being familiar (at least in general terms) what the EULA says, or guarding your card. Caveat emptor, and all that.

It's not an Apple thing. This is the state of the industry. The biggest reason it's so prominent online is because they have requirements (or maybe it's only a tradition) to make their policies available and get explicit agreement. The public throws a hissy fit if they don't. We demand this (openness) of our online services.

Most brick and mortar companies are not expected to ask you to agree to their policies before a purchase (though they occasionally fall foul of not being open enough). That's not because they don't have policies, but because the public has lived with them for so long it doesn't even occur to us that we should have a right to know and agree.

Instead if you walk into the store and buy something, you've just agreed. Walmart has a return policy, it includes damages, what they will and will not accept or be responsible for, etc. It applies whether you checked a little box or not. They are nice enough to supply the legalese if you ask for it, but they have no problem leaving you not only in ignorance of what those policies are, but the fact that they have them. Again, caveat emptor.

The iTunes TOS contains similar language to Amazon's regarding security and your account/password. Apple however includes a sentence explicitly stating that Apple shall bear no liability in the event of unauthorized use of your account. This is pretty staunch language for a digital TOS. I know Amazon doesn't have this policy in their TOS. Basically...even if their servers get hacked...ala Sony PS3 network...they are not legally obliged to do anything about it? What does your credit card TOS say? Because mine throws it to iTunes first if its their breach (but also gives me the right to litigate it out if I don't want to pay.)

Sent from my Android 3.1 Motorola Xoom Tablet!

 

[sjleworthy]

99% of banks and credit card companies in the uk are bound by law to reimburse incase of fraud. And this is clearly stated in their terms and conditions. I've had my identity and cc details stolen and used a few times online before now, most noticeably from ebay and PAYPAL. I got full cc refunding.

Is this not the case in the States?

 

[info]

The iTunes TOS contains similar language to Amazon's regarding security and your account/password. Apple however includes a sentence explicitly stating that Apple shall bear no liability in the event of unauthorized use of your account. This is pretty staunch language for a digital TOS. I know Amazon doesn't have this policy in their TOS. Basically...even if their servers get hacked...ala Sony PS3 network...they are not legally obliged to do anything about it? What does your credit card TOS say? Because mine throws it to iTunes first if its their breach (but also gives me the right to litigate it out if I don't want to pay.)

Sent from my Android 3.1 Motorola Xoom Tablet!

"You can't sign away ANY legally protected rights in a contract negotiation.".

 

[extendedforecast]

Until you see pictures of your kids in an advertisement because you didn't realize that by using a cloud service on someone else's server you signed away your rights to your intellectual property. It doesn't effect you until it effects you.

I keep a prepaid debit card tied to my iTunes account since Apple states they will not reimburse you for any fradulent activity. Some hacker on the smae unsecured wireless network at Starbucks steal your login and buy $500 worth of music? You'd better hope the credit card companies terms are more forgiving than Apple's cuz they don't have to credit your account one cent.

Sent from my Android 3.1 Motorola Xoom Tablet!

but thats a quite paranoid attitude, besides, im talking from a personal point of view, not for all in-sundry. i havent a clue about other people's paranoia.

any cc fraud and my cc company re-reimburses me.
photos of my kids online? not much i can do about that whatever. if Apple scan or browse my personal cloud data then i dont care personally, and nothing i can do about it anyway. it's up to me to be vigilant on what i personally do online.
again, these are daily perils of 'living' online. i deal with it, but no, i give none of it any thought. and reading a 50 page document that i wont understand wont make me any the wiser or happier wont achieve a hill of beans.

besides, i dont have kids or take photos

All I have to say to that is...WOW. I have and continue to use Dropbox to move proprietary analysis models that I build - and various white papers and documents that I have written between iOS devices. I have on occasion made them available to the client via a link to my public folder. You'd better believe I read the Dropbox TOS to make sure they made no claim on my Intellectual Property. This is one of the biggest emerging legal grey areas in digital contract law. It can't really be paranoia when this actually happened to professional photogs who lost their IP by using a twitter service. And yes you can be criminally prosecuted for violating a EULA as I have seen this happen too. Two guys I knew in college were arrested and deported over a EULA violation. There are certain companies that are really angry if you reverse engineer their code - at least here in the US.

But its true this is the stuff that no one is ever careful about until it nips you. And if you don't bother to read terms...you really have no idea what your CC company will reimburse you for. There's a very recent important decision from a district court in Maine stating online bank entities that impliment 'secret word' precautions have done enough. So its pretty much up to the end user to understand and accept the encryption standards of the connection they are on. Although far too often I see people on Chase commercials doing their online banking from a mall or a coffee shop implying non encrypted connections are even remotely safe. Cyber fraud is HUGE and Credit card companies are going to do whatever they can to get out of the liabilities of that ever growing industry....including slipping in clauses to the TOS that no one will read.

Sent from my Android 3.1 Motorola Xoom Tablet!

 

[extendedforecast]

The iTunes TOS contains similar language to Amazon's regarding security and your account/password. Apple however includes a sentence explicitly stating that Apple shall bear no liability in the event of unauthorized use of your account. This is pretty staunch language for a digital TOS. I know Amazon doesn't have this policy in their TOS. Basically...even if their servers get hacked...ala Sony PS3 network...they are not legally obliged to do anything about it? What does your credit card TOS say? Because mine throws it to iTunes first if its their breach (but also gives me the right to litigate it out if I don't want to pay.)

Sent from my Android 3.1 Motorola Xoom Tablet!

"You can't sign away ANY legally protected rights in a contract negotiation.".

Which right is legally protected here. The debt is incurred in your name...you have signed away your right to reimbursement from iTunes. The credit card company has the complete right to tell you they won't forgive the debt incurred in your name if it was fraudulently done on another service. And in many of these cases you sign away your rights to civil litigation...and are bound by agreement to arbitrate clauses. Even if you want to fight it out...you agreed to never sit in front of a jury.

Sent from my Android 3.1 Motorola Xoom Tablet!

 

[extendedforecast]

99% of banks and credit card companies in the uk are bound by law to reimburse incase of fraud. And this is clearly stated in their terms and conditions. I've had my identity and cc details stolen and used a few times online before now, most noticeably from ebay and PAYPAL. I got full cc refunding.

Is this not the case in the States?

Depends on whether the physical card was stolen or not.

But for digital accounts in the US (where there is no signature) the merchant is usually responsible. But on iTunes you very explicitly agreed they are not responsible. They can reimburse the credit card company. But they have also reserved the right to make you pay them.

There hasn't been a major breach yet...but the fallout from the PS3 network scandal will be quite telling for this kind of digital law and massive 'service billing' type network problem. Just because it hasn't been done yet doesn't mean its not possible.

Sent from my Android 3.1 Motorola Xoom Tablet!

 

[info]

which right is legally protected here. The debt is incurred in your name...you have signed away your right to reimbursement from itunes. The credit card company has the complete right to tell you they won't forgive the debt incurred in your name if it was fraudulently done on another service. And in many of these cases you sign away your rights to civil litigation...and are bound by agreement to arbitrate clauses. Even if you want to fight it out...you agreed to never sit in front of a jury.

Sent from my android 3.1 motorola xoom tablet!

ok.

 

[jnewell]

The iTunes TOS contains similar language to Amazon's regarding security and your account/password. Apple however includes a sentence explicitly stating that Apple shall bear no liability in the event of unauthorized use of your account. This is pretty staunch language for a digital TOS. I know Amazon doesn't have this policy in their TOS. Basically...even if their servers get hacked...ala Sony PS3 network...they are not legally obliged to do anything about it? What does your credit card TOS say? Because mine throws it to iTunes first if its their breach (but also gives me the right to litigate it out if I don't want to pay.)

Sent from my Android 3.1 Motorola Xoom Tablet!

"You can't sign away ANY legally protected rights in a contract negotiation.".

I will only observe that we've moved way off the click-through ELU that the OP started with.

 

[ipad1234]

Always read the TOS

This notification comes up every time the terms of service change. I think few of us bother to read them but perhaps we should. At any rate, there is no way around agreeing.

Did you see the south park episode about the iTunes TOS? Kyle accidentally agreed to be turned into a humancentiPad

southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s15e01-humancentipad

 

[Seadog]

We sign fine print agreements daily with the understanding that someday it will bite us. and what is the alternative? If you do not have a trained legal mind, most agreements will be over the head of those using the product. I have experience with dealing with regulatory agencies which are most notorious for ambiguous language. And it is done deliberately, so that in the field, some engineer can say no or yes with the same legality. I have seen identical projects that were interpreted totally opposite, based on interpretation by different people. Our time is valuable. We usually ignore user agreements for a piece of software because it essentially says that if you try to sell or use the same software over and over, they will get you. If you use it for illegal uses, they will get you. If you try and use it for anything they deem inappropriate, they will get you. On the other hand, an investment like for a new car, house, or business, I heartedly recommend that people read the fine print. If someone tries to make you an offer too good to be true, check the fine print.

 

[info]

Did you see the south park episode about the iTunes TOS? Kyle accidentally agreed to be turned into a humancentiPad

southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s15e01-humancentipad

I'm afraid I couldn't get this on my iPad and that is all that I will have available this evening. Must be good.