No more iPads?

[Seadog]

Labor practices in China is not what this topic is about. It is about how one deceitful and failing Chinese company is trying to exploit Apple. If they win, Apple loses a major market for the iPad which can create financial problems. Even if you were to make everything in China a perfect world from your perspective, it would not change a thing. Manufacturers would move to another country, and the workers in China would be worse off than ever. As for the Chinese having less respect for life, you cannot ignore reality. We are not talking the individual, but a collective mindset. The lower classes have to toil in conditions that defy odds. Environmental hazards are common, and there are almost no consummer protection. The only true way to induce change is to introduce a steady stream of reforms at a pace that does not cause the ruling cliche to balk. China is emerging as a market for goods. This is because more and more people are able to afford the products they make.

And what is the big deal about having workers put in 12 hour shifts for a big product push? It is not unusual in any nation. My longest without sleep was 72 hours, and I have needed to be on duty for up to 18 hours on numerous occasions. More often than not, it is more often the higher level employees that have to work longer hours. The workers on the floor are mostly young adults that are more resilient. Try getting by on an hour sleep when you are getting around 60. This is not unusual for many professions. When a water main breaks at 1:00 in the morning, is the repair crew going to wait until 8:00 to fix it? No because it would be a health and safety issue. They will come in, work until it is fixed, and then work on scheduled projects. Do you realize how much sleep electric companie's linemen get after a major storm? And the same situation may happen in an American factory. If the situation arose, they would get workers in to complete a project on time. It may not happen in the same way, but most workers recognize that a person that cannot be flexible, can be replaced.

 

[Kaykaykay]

Labor practices in China is not what this topic is about. It is about how one deceitful and failing Chinese company is trying to exploit Apple. If they win, Apple loses a major market for the iPad which can create financial problems. Even if you were to make everything in China a perfect world from your perspective, it would not change a thing. Manufacturers would move to another country, and the workers in China would be worse off than ever. As for the Chinese having less respect for life, you cannot ignore reality. We are not talking the individual, but a collective mindset. The lower classes have to toil in conditions that defy odds. Environmental hazards are common, and there are almost no consummer protection. The only true way to induce change is to introduce a steady stream of reforms at a pace that does not cause the ruling cliche to balk. China is emerging as a market for goods. This is because more and more people are able to afford the products they make.

And what is the big deal about having workers put in 12 hour shifts for a big product push? It is not unusual in any nation. My longest without sleep was 72 hours, and I have needed to be on duty for up to 18 hours on numerous occasions. More often than not, it is more often the higher level employees that have to work longer hours. The workers on the floor are mostly young adults that are more resilient. Try getting by on an hour sleep when you are getting around 60. This is not unusual for many professions. When a water main breaks at 1:00 in the morning, is the repair crew going to wait until 8:00 to fix it? No because it would be a health and safety issue. They will come in, work until it is fixed, and then work on scheduled projects. Do you realize how much sleep electric companie's linemen get after a major storm? And the same situation may happen in an American factory. If the situation arose, they would get workers in to complete a project on time. It may not happen in the same way, but most workers recognize that a person that cannot be flexible, can be replaced.

We're not going to agree on worldviews, but most workers in the developed world are not rooted out of their beds to work a 12-hour shift after they've been up for who knows how long. Emergency crews and such are offered voluntary overtime, for instance. But you've mentioned previously that you're against unions, so I imagine you'd be against protections for workers in the Apple circumstances, too.

 

[Seadog]

We're not going to agree on worldviews, but most workers in the developed world are not rooted out of their beds to work a 12-hour shift after they've been up for who knows how long. Emergency crews and such are offered voluntary overtime, for instance. But you've mentioned previously that you're against unions, so I imagine you'd be against protections for workers in the Apple circumstances, too.

Who said I was against unions? I said that unions are becoming dinosaurs because they will not adapt to changes in manufacturing needs. Both manufacturing and unions have to adapt to the needs of the market. The cradle to grave attitude about working at a factory is no longer true. Organizations cannot do retirement plans where they pay for workers long after they retire. And the workers cannot afford to have all their retirement in any single company that may go out of business, or get taken over and have the retirement fund raided. Health care is becoming a major headache for any company. So much so, that it is one of the first benefits that are lost in any major overhaul of benefits. And many unions are trying to run things like our government does things, and that is very inefficient. For any company to succeed, the worker/management relationship must be consentual. Employees should have retirement plans that do not depend on the company funds, but will travel with the worker from job to job. I think healthcare should be simplified. Offer one of several national/regional plans, and the employee gets so much per month sent to cover the plan, paid to the plan. If there is a need to have more coverge, the employee pays the overage. Other things have to change too. Retirement is going to have to be moved upward. When 65 was chosen as the age of retirement, the average age of death was 67-68. Now it is much older than that. We are going to have to adjust retirement age to reflect the new reality.

 

[Kaykaykay]

Who said I was against unions? I said that unions are becoming dinosaurs because they will not adapt to changes in manufacturing needs. Both manufacturing and unions have to adapt to the needs of the market. The cradle to grave attitude about working at a factory is no longer true. Organizations cannot do retirement plans where they pay for workers long after they retire. And the workers cannot afford to have all their retirement in any single company that may go out of business, or get taken over and have the retirement fund raided. Health care is becoming a major headache for any company. So much so, that it is one of the first benefits that are lost in any major overhaul of benefits. And many unions are trying to run things like our government does things, and that is very inefficient. For any company to succeed, the worker/management relationship must be consentual. Employees should have retirement plans that do not depend on the company funds, but will travel with the worker from job to job. I think healthcare should be simplified. Offer one of several national/regional plans, and the employee gets so much per month sent to cover the plan, paid to the plan. If there is a need to have more coverge, the employee pays the overage. Other things have to change too. Retirement is going to have to be moved upward. When 65 was chosen as the age of retirement, the average age of death was 67-68. Now it is much older than that. We are going to have to adjust retirement age to reflect the new reality.

On this we agree. Retirement age has been adjusted upward to what I think are unrealistic levels, though. While many people might be willing to work into their 70s as lifespan grows, stats show that even people in their 50s are having a hard time finding work. That's a reality, too.

 

[Gabriel1]

Ok guys, how a country chooses to run itself is an issue for its own politicians, and as we have rules against discussion of politics lets think about where this discussion goes, it would be a shame to have to close such an informative thread.

The Archangel

 

[Kaykaykay]

Fair enough, Gabriel.

 

[Gabriel1]

Fair enough, Gabriel.

Thanks Kay, I'm enjoying the discussion here, I'd just prefer to give the thread a nudge in the right direction rather than close it.

The Archangel

 

[idave23]

Not trying to promote anybody's show but this could prove to be an interesting segment on Nightline tomorrow. Maybe some interesting insight into how our iPads are made. I know I'll be watching.
ABC Nightline Foxconn Special

 

[idave23]

Meanwhile, back at the patent wars...
Report: Apple Threatens to Sue Amidst iPad Name Battle in China | News & Opinion | PCMag.com
Proview, Apple iPad Dispute: Lower China Court Rules In Favor Of Shenzen Proview Technology In Trademark Battle

And...What'$ in a name?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204792404577228660739708088.html

 

[AirPlayit]

AppleInsider reports today that Chinese firm Proview has had some success in its current trademark dispute with Apple, by winning a ruling from the Intermediate People’s Court in Huizhou, China, which told distributors to stop selling the iPad.

 

[Seadog]

As I remember the story, it is only one distributor that was banned, in one district.

Good discussions must walk a fine line, and push perspective. It is a pity when someone violates the rules, but it seems to almost always happen when the discussion is online. so, it would probably be best that this stops while it is civil.

 

[Kaykaykay]

In reality, there is no way to have an honest discussion of big business in any part of the world that doesn't directly tie into politics. Where there is money, there will always be politics.

Anyone with even a rough idea of how China works knows that politics are intertwined in business and law in countless ways, directly and indirectly.

But I understand that for the sake of discussion here, we can only have a superficial conversation that focuses on symptoms, rather than causes.

 

[idave23]

In reality, there is no way to have an honest discussion of big business in any part of the world that doesn't directly tie into politics. Where there is money, there will always be politics.

Anyone with even a rough idea of how China works knows that politics are intertwined in business and law in countless ways, directly and indirectly.

But I understand that for the sake of discussion here, we can only have a superficial conversation that focuses on symptoms, rather than causes.

Well said K3. And anyone who has spent any amount of time in China at all knows that being an "expert" on how politics/business/law and guanxi work together there is basically impossible. Just when you think you have it figured out, you don't.

 

[Seadog]

Here in the States, we think government and business is too intertwined, but compared to most other countries, it is hardly the case. What is a big issue, is that almost to a person, people think that how things are done in one place, applies to all locations. The Nightline episode promises to be interesting, and controversial.

 

[exile]

I'm surprised after 5 pages this thread hasn't turned into a flame war.....