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Civil War Battles - Virginia & Pennsylvania

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Battle of Gettysburg - Third Day

On the third day of the battle, Lee wanted to repeat his plans from the previous day (more in the first quote below and in the link) - James Longstreet, second in command, was against the frontal assault on the center of the Union line on Cemetery Ridge, where W.S. Hancock was in charge. The first two images below are repeated from previous posts for an appreciation of the Confederate march/charge - nearly a mile separated Seminary Ridge (blue arrow on the Pennsylvania monument, approximately where Hancock was positioned) and Cemetery Ridge (white arrow on the Virginia Monument, where Lee was observing); also, an additional dramatic view from the latter ridge.

The battle map shows the flanking maneuvers attempted which failed and the dramatic central charge across those fields (plus stone walls & fences); the latter is often called Pickett's Charge (a misnomer) - Longstreet gave the command for multiple Confederate units totaling about 12,500 men - some of the generals in charge included Trimble, Pettigrew, Pickett, & Armistead (the latter two shown below). Several artistic depictions of the charge added (the first from the Cyclorama discussed previously). The South suffered over 50% casualties in the charge with the loss of dozens of officers, including the death of Lewis Armistead - a monument on the battlefield marks the place where he was fatally wounded, and plenty of other monuments are placed along Hancock Avenue (see diagram - blue arrow on the PA Monument).

Several large calvary battles occurred that day - the major one pitted J.E.B. Stuart against George Armstrong Custer, who was a brevet Union general and only 23 years old that day (he would die in 1876 at the Little Big Horn in command of the 7th Calvary). One last post on Gettysburg to be added discussing the aftermath of this 3-day conflict. Dave :)

General Lee wished to renew the attack on Friday, July 3, using the same basic plan as the previous day: Longstreet would attack the Federal left, while Ewell attacked Culp's Hill.[52] However, before Longstreet was ready, Union XII Corps troops started a dawn artillery bombardment against the Confederates on Culp's Hill in an effort to regain a portion of their lost works. The Confederates attacked, and the second fight for Culp's Hill ended around 11 a.m. Harry Pfanz judged that, after some seven hours of bitter combat, "the Union line was intact and held more strongly than before."

Lee was forced to change his plans. Longstreet would command Pickett's Virginia division of his own First Corps, plus six brigades from Hill's Corps, in an attack on the Federal II Corps position at the right center of the Union line on Cemetery Ridge. Prior to the attack, all the artillery the Confederacy could bring to bear on the Federal positions would bombard and weaken the enemy's line. (Source)

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I believe that the USS Monitor was the first vessel that mounted it's guns in a rotating turret, allowing it to fire in any direction without changing course. It didn't take long for other naval architects to copy this idea. It was the beginning of the end for guns mounted in fixed broadsides.
 
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I believe that the USS Monitor was the first vessel that mounted it's guns in a rotating turret, allowing it to fire in any direction without changing course. It didn't take long for other naval architects to copy this idea. It was the beginning of the end for guns mounted in fixed broadsides.

The Monitor was certainly a revolutionary ship - first quote below showing the projected astounding cost in today's dollars, i.e. $7,400,000! And the design and construction included over 40 inventions patented by John Ericsson.

From the second quote (Source), the revolving turret was the invention of Theodore Timby, an American, who worked on the concept in the 1840s but until the onset of the Civil War there was apparently little interest in Washington, D.C. But the last sentence in that second quote is worth repeating in bold - This was the first-ever battle fought between two armored warships and marked a turning point in naval warfare. Dave :)

On October 4 of 1861, Ericsson signed a contract with the Union Navy to build the Monitor for $275,000 (roughly $7.4 million in 2014), with Ericsson being liable for a full refund if the ship did not prove to be a success.

The Monitor was built in the dockyards of the Continental Iron Works in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, New York; and her keel was laid on October 25th. While Continental built the hull, Ericsson contracted with DeLamater Iron Works of Manhattan to build the engines and machinery, and he contract with Novelty Iron Works, also from Manhattan, to build the Monitor's distinctive turret.

When she was launched on January 30, 1862, the Monitor was a completely revolutionary ship. Her design included more than forty inventions patented by Ericsson. Ericsson could have made a small fortune from his ownership of those patents, but he donated them all to the U.S. Government. Due to her strange appearance, it was said that the new ship looked like a, "cheesebox on a raft." (Source)

The USS Monitor was an iron-hulled steamship. Built during the American Civil War, she was the first ironclad warship commissioned by the Union Navy.[a] Monitor is most famous for her central role in the Battle of Hampton Roads on 9 March 1862, where, under the command of Lieutenant John Worden, she fought the casemate ironcladCSS Virginia (built on the hull of the former steam frigate USS Merrimack) to a standoff. The unique design of the ship, distinguished by its revolving turret which was invented by American inventor Theodore Timby, was quickly duplicated and established the Monitor type of warship.

The remainder of the ship was designed by the Swedish-born engineer and inventor John Ericsson, and hurriedly built in Brooklyn in only 101 days, Monitor presented a new concept in ship design and employed a variety of new inventions and innovations in ship building that caught the attention of the world. The impetus to build Monitor was prompted by the news that the Confederates were building an ironclad warship, named Virginia, that could effectively engage the Union ships blockading Hampton Roads and the James River leading to Richmond and ultimately advance on Washington, D. C. and other cities, and could do so virtually unchallenged. Before Monitorcould reach Hampton Roads, the Confederate ironclad had destroyed the sail frigates USS Cumberland and USS Congress and had run the steam frigate USS Minnesota aground. That night Monitor arrived and the following morning, just before Virginia was about to finish off the Minnesota, the new Union ironclad confronted the Confederate ship, preventing her from wreaking further destruction on the wooden Union ships. A four-hour battle ensued, both ships pounding the other with close-range cannon fire, although neither ship could destroy or seriously damage the other. This was the first-ever battle fought between two armored warships and marked a turning point in naval warfare.
 
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Gettysburg - Aftermath

Over 160,000 men converged on the town of Gettysburg and its surroundings to fight in the 3-day battle. The total estimated casualties were between 46,000 and 51,000 with nearly 8,000 men killed on the battlefield. The casualties are summarized in the first attachment below (Wiki source); new estimates of Civil War deaths, i.e. military, are up to 700,000 to 800,000 men, nearly twice that of WWII (see graph below - Source). Also, for each man who died on the battlefield or from wounds during the Civil War, 2 more would die from other causes, mostly dysentery, respiratory infections, and childhood diseases due to a lack of immunity.

Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia retreated back into Maryland and crossing the Potomac into Virginia, which took a while as seen in the map below. Although considered a Union victory, Lee's army escaped destruction and the war would continue for nearly two more years. On July 4, 1863, Vicksburg (the stronghold on the Mississippi) surrendered to U.S. Grant - the city did not celebrate Independence Day for over 80 years! Grant, Sherman, & George Thomas would go on to major victories in Tennessee & Georgia w/ Grant brought east by Lincoln to face Robert E. Lee (already discussed previously, especially the Petersburg Campaign and its preceding battles).

On November 19, 1863, Abraham Lincoln would travel to Gettysburg to deliver his address and dedicate the National Cemetery - more quoted below (Source) - his speech was short (about 2 minutes) and followed a 2-hour marathon orator, Edward Everett, who was a famous speaker of the times; for those looking this post and who have not read Lincoln's address, the several versions can be found HERE; also, note Everett's comment to Lincoln after Abe's address (second quote - I put the statement in bold). Dave :)

P.S. below is the percentage of deaths to the population of the times for three major wars - 2.4% of the current USA population equates to 7,680,000 people - scary! :eek:

Deaths per Population
Revolutionary War - 0.8%
Civil War - 2.4%
World War II - 0.3%

The Gettysburg Address is a speech by U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, one of the best-known in American history.[4] It was delivered by Lincoln during the American Civil War, on the afternoon of Thursday, November 19, 1863, at the dedication of the Soldiers' National Cemetery in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, four and a half months after the Union armies defeated those of the Confederacy at the Battle of Gettysburg.

Abraham Lincoln's carefully crafted address, secondary to other presentations that day, was one of the greatest and most influential statements of national purpose. In just over two minutes, Lincoln reiterated the principles of human equality espoused by the Declaration of Independence[5] and proclaimed the Civil War as a struggle for the preservation of the Union sundered by the secession crisis,[6] with "a new birth of freedom"[7] that would bring true equality[8] to all of its citizens.[8] Lincoln also redefined the Civil War as a struggle not just for the Union, but also for the principle of human equality.[5]

Edward Everett, the chief speaker at the Gettysburg cemetery dedication, clearly admired Lincoln's remarks and wrote to him the next day saying, "I should be glad, if I could flatter myself that I came as near to the central idea of the occasion, in two hours, as you did in two minutes." In 1864 Everett asked Lincoln for a copy of the speech to benefit Union soldiers, making it the third manuscript copy. Eventually the state of Illinois acquired it, where it's preserved at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum.


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More great reading Dave. Thanks!
The statistics re the civil war deaths compared to WW2, per capita, are just incredible!
Andrew


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More great reading Dave. Thanks!
The statistics re the civil war deaths compared to WW2, per capita, are just incredible!

Hi Andrew - glad that you posted and thanks for your comments. The per capita death rate was staggering for the soldiers - the civilian deaths in that war are not known but would also be in the thousands due to violence (especially in the border states, such as Missouri), disease, and even starvation.

A very poignant story involves James Longstreet - I read a biography on him last year - his family was staying in Richmond and in the winter of early 1862, a scarlet fever epidemic hit the city - he & his wife lost 3 of their children in just over a week (some more info below - Source). We went to Hollywood Cemetery on our recent visit to Richmond (an upcoming post in this thread) and saw the gravestones (pic below). Dave :)

Longstreet's wife and children had long since come from Texas, and were living with friends in Richmond, Virginia. Early in 1862, during a scarlet fever epidemic in that city, three of the four Longstreet children (Mary Anne, James and Augustus Baldwin) died within eight days. The blow was almost too much for Longstreet; he hurriedly went to Richmond. It was some days before he could leave his wife 13-year-old son Garland, who were devastated by the tragedy.
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Fredericksburg & Onto Richmond

Our three days in Tysons Corner went fast - we left for two nights in Richmond (location shown on the map), but nearly half way between D.C. & Richmond is the town of Fredericksburg - the area was prominent during the Civil War - some of the battles include the Wilderness (x2), Chancellorsville, Spotsylvania, and Fredericksburg.

So on the way to Richmond, we stopped in Fredericksburg, a colonial town dating from the early 18th century - the present downtown area is well preserved (plenty of pics below); George Washington's mother lived there and has a college named after her which is now the University of Mary Washington. But in December of 1863, an important battle engulfed the town - a national military park w/ a visitor's center is present along w/ a cemetery.

The Battle of Fredericksburg occurred over several days (dates and more info below - Source) - the 'new' commander of the Union army was Ambrose Burnsides w/ Joseph Hooker playing a prominent role - just a side note, the term 'sideburns' was named after Ambrose's side whiskers! For the south, Robert E. Lee along w/ Longstreet & Jackson were entrenched above the city, especially at Marye's Heights, which on December 13 was the site of devastation of federal forces. Below are two maps of the battle w/ a close-up of the heights.

The historic district of the town (where some of the fighting would have taken place) is on the Rappahannock River - the Union were on the other side and their engineers built pontoon bridges across the water in just a few days - a remarkable feat allowing Burnside's men to cross - below some artsy pics of the crossing and the attempt to go up Marye's Heights - also I can imagine Lee looking east across the river and remembering the topography - he was born at Stratford Hall on the Potomac River (see may & an image of the Hall, which is a great visit we did a few years back along w/ a visit the George Washington's birthplace, just a short drive north on the Potomac River; of course, Mt. Vernon is further north just below Alexandria).

The final pic lists the numbers involved in this conflict and the casualties, more that twice for the Union forces - because of this disastrous failure, Lincoln fired Burnside and Joseph Hooker was chosen as the next Union leader - he would be fired after his loss at Chancellorsville in early May of 1863 which spurred Lee to again invade the north ending w/ his retreat at Gettysburg - onto Richmond for a few final posts in this thread. Dave :)

The Battle of Fredericksburg was fought December 11–15, 1862, in and around Fredericksburg, Virginia, between General Robert E. Lee's Confederate Army of Northern Virginia and the Union Army of the Potomac, commanded by Major General Ambrose Burnside. The Union Army's futile frontal attacks on December 13 against entrenched Confederate defenders on the heights behind the city is remembered as one of the most one-sided battles of the American Civil War, with Union casualties more than twice as heavy as those suffered by the Confederates.

Burnside's plan was to cross the Rappahannock River at Fredericksburg in mid-November and race to the Confederate capital of Richmond before Lee's army could stop him. Bureaucratic delays prevented Burnside from receiving the necessary pontoon bridges in time and Lee moved his army to block the crossings. When the Union army was finally able to build its bridges and cross under fire, urban combat in the city resulted on December 11–12. Union troops prepared to assault Confederate defensive positions south of the city and on a strongly fortified ridge just west of the city known as Marye's Heights.

On December 13, the "grand division" of Maj. Gen. William B. Franklin was able to pierce the first defensive line of Confederate Lieutenant General Stonewall Jackson to the south, but was finally repulsed. Burnside ordered the grand divisions of Maj. Gens. Edwin V. Sumner and Joseph Hooker to make multiple frontal assaults against Lt. Gen. James Longstreet's position on Marye's Heights, all of which were repulsed with heavy losses. On December 15, Burnside withdrew his army, ending another failed Union campaign in the Eastern Theater.
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Gettysburg - Aftermath

Over 160,000 men converged on the town of Gettysburg and its surroundings to fight in the 3-day battle. The total estimated casualties were between 46,000 and 51,000 with nearly 8,000 men killed on the battlefield. The casualties are summarized in the first attachment below (Wiki source); new estimates of Civil War deaths, i.e. military, are up to 700,000 to 800,000 men, nearly twice that of WWII (see graph below - Source). Also, for each man who died on the battlefield or from wounds during the Civil War, 2 more would die from other causes, mostly dysentery, respiratory infections, and childhood diseases due to a lack of immunity.

Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia retreated back into Maryland and crossing the Potomac into Virginia, which took a while as seen in the map below. Although considered a Union victory, Lee's army escaped destruction and the war would continue for nearly two more years. On July 4, 1863, Vicksburg (the stronghold on the Mississippi) surrendered to U.S. Grant - the city did not celebrate Independence Day for over 80 years! Grant, Sherman, & George Thomas would go on to major victories in Tennessee & Georgia w/ Grant brought east by Lincoln to face Robert E. Lee (already discussed previously, especially the Petersburg Campaign and its preceding battles).

On November 19, 1863, Abraham Lincoln would travel to Gettysburg to deliver his address and dedicate the National Cemetery - more quoted below (Source) - his speech was short (about 2 minutes) and followed a 2-hour marathon orator, Edward Everett, who was a famous speaker of the times; for those looking this post and who have not read Lincoln's address, the several versions can be found HERE; also, note Everett's comment to Lincoln after Abe's address (second quote - I put the statement in bold). Dave :)

P.S. below is the percentage of deaths to the population of the times for three major wars - 2.4% of the current USA population equates to 7,680,000 people - scary! :eek:

Deaths per Population
Revolutionary War - 0.8%
Civil War - 2.4%
World War II - 0.3%






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I think that one of the reasons for such a high casualty rate in the Civil War, compared to earlier and later wars fought by the United States was due to the tremendous advances in weapons technology. The Civil war was fought at the dawn of modern mechanized warfare. Rifles were becoming common. Pistols could fire up to 6 shots before reloading. The first practical automatic weapon, the Gatling Gun, was deployed. Trains could move troops and supplies long distances at previously unheard of speeds. These advances in weapons technology and the faster armament production possible in the early Industrial Age, combined with tactics from an earlier age, placed enemies in such close proximity that the newer weapons could kill and wound their targets at a much greater rate than was possible in earlier major wars.
In later wars, such as World War 2, the weapons and tactics of modern warfare required fewer troops to have the same effect, resulting in fewer military casualties. Conversely, civilian deaths as a precentage of the total deaths in war have grown.
 
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Fredericksburg & Onto Richmond

Our three days in Tysons Corner went fast - we left for two nights in Richmond (location shown on the map), but nearly half way between D.C. & Richmond is the town of Fredericksburg - the area was prominent during the Civil War - some of the battles include the Wilderness (x2), Chancellorsville, Spotsylvania, and Fredericksburg.

So on the way to Richmond, we stopped in Fredericksburg, a colonial town dating from the early 18th century - the present downtown area is well preserved (plenty of pics below); George Washington's mother lived there and has a college named after her which is now the University of Mary Washington. But in December of 1863, an important battle engulfed the town - a national military park w/ a visitor's center is present along w/ a cemetery.

The Battle of Fredericksburg occurred over several days (dates and more info below - Source) - the 'new' commander of the Union army was Ambrose Burnsides w/ Joseph Hooker playing a prominent role - just a side note, the term 'sideburns' was named after Ambrose's side whiskers! For the south, Robert E. Lee along w/ Longstreet & Jackson were entrenched above the city, especially at Marye's Heights, which on December 13 was the site of devastation of federal forces. Below are two maps of the battle w/ a close-up of the heights.

The historic district of the town (where some of the fighting would have taken place) is on the Rappahannock River - the Union were on the other side and their engineers built pontoon bridges across the water in just a few days - a remarkable feat allowing Burnside's men to cross - below some artsy pics of the crossing and the attempt to go up Marye's Heights - also I can imagine Lee looking east across the river and remembering the topography - he was born at Stratford Hall on the Potomac River (see may & an image of the Hall, which is a great visit we did a few years back along w/ a visit the George Washington's birthplace, just a short drive north on the Potomac River; of course, Mt. Vernon is further north just below Alexandria).

The final pic lists the numbers involved in this conflict and the casualties, more that twice for the Union forces - because of this disastrous failure, Lincoln fired Burnside and Joseph Hooker was chosen as the next Union leader - he would be fired after his loss at Chancellorsville in early May of 1863 which spurred Lee to again invade the north ending w/ his retreat at Gettysburg - onto Richmond for a few final posts in this thread. Dave :)


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Thanks for the wonderful post on the fighting a Fredericksburg, it was very interesting. Being as some of the fighting took place in town, do any of the surviving buildings still bear any evidence of the battle? How much of the battlefield survives, given that the city has grown since the days of the Civil War?
 
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I think that one of the reasons for such a high casualty rate in the Civil War, compared to earlier and later wars fiught by the United States was due to the tremendous advances in weapons technology. The Civil war was fought at the dawn of modern mechanized warfare. Rifles were becoming common. Pistols could fire up to 6 shots before reloading. The first practical automatic weapon, the Gatling Gun, was deployed. Trains could move troops and supplies long distances at previously unheard of speeds. These advances in weapons technology and the faster armament production possible in the early Industrial Age, combined with tactics from an earlier age, placed enemies in such close proximity that the newer weapons could kill and wound their targets at a much greater rate than was possible in earlier major wars.
In later wars, such as World War 2, the weapons and tactics of modern warfare required fewer troops to have the same effect, resulting in fewer military casualties. Conversely, civilian deaths as a precentage of the total deaths in war have grown.

Well, I certainly agree w/ the above and can add a few other reasons for the high mortality. The military tactics of the times (basically Napoleonic, i.e. line up men in the open and march forward to fight - the British found that out shockingly at the Battle of New Orleans in 1815 fighting Andy Jackson's riflemen) were archaic compared to the development in the weaponry, whether hand-held or cannonade. The DVD I mentioned previously (Guns of the Civil War) clearly illustrates that point. I'm also reading the book below on the American Rifle by Alexander Rose which also brings home the development, improvements, and increased accuracy of the guns being used around the time of the Civil War.

Of course, the other issue was disease and the primitive medical care of the time. I've read a number of books on Civil War medicine - currently half way through the second book shown below (both bought in the Gettysburg Museum Shop) - lack of skill in many of these poorly trained 'doctors', little availability of anesthesia (ether & chloroform existed, but alcohol and biting a stick were often all that was readily at hand), lack of understanding of antisepsis, and an absence of knowledge of causes of infection (and of course no antibiotics) were all contributory to the horrific rate of amputations and post-injury infection - Joseph Lister and Louis Pasteur were just on the horizon.

The Crimean War in the mid-1850s was even more an example of how disease and medical ignorance contributed to so many deaths - the mortality in that war was comparable and likely greater than in the American Civil War (statistics shown from HERE); as mentioned previously, 2 out of 3 men that died in the Civil Was did so from disease - this was definitely exceeded in the Crimean War despite the lack of facts; I've seen percentages of up to 90% mortality in the latter war being attributed to disease - the emergence of nursing was seen in the 1850s w/ the pioneering efforts of Florence Nightingale. Well, could go on but getting 'too windy' - Dave :)
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Thanks for the wonderful post on the fighting a Fredericksburg, it was very interesting. Being as some of the fighting took place in town, do any of the surviving buildings still bear any evidence of the battle? How much of the battlefield survives, given that the city has grown since the days of the Civil War?

Hi Scifan.. - well, I will not be as helpful w/ your question above; I've been into Fredericksburg three times over the years, but for only a couple of hours - this last time we arrived on a Saturday and there was a huge festival in the historic district - could not even find a parking place. I've not really explored the older/restored buildings in that location but I suspect that there is still evidence of the fighting that took place in that battle - there was in the town of Gettysburg - about the best that I can say - maybe a local native will 'chime in'?

Concerning preservation, the quote below is about all that I can provide, i.e. looks like a goodly amount, especially around Marye's Heights has been lost forever. We skipped the visitor's center this time, so might have been updated on the acreage preserved (and that now gone). Dave :)
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In March 2006, the Civil War Preservation Trust (CWPT) announced the beginning of a $12 million national campaign to preserve the historic Slaughter Pen Farm, a key part of the Fredericksburg battlefield. The 205-acre (0.83 km2) farm, known locally as the Pierson Tract, was the scene of bloody struggle on December 13, 1862. Over this ground Federal troops under Maj. Gen. George Meade and Brig. Gen. John Gibbon launched their assault against Lt. Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson's Confederates holding the southern portion of the Army of Northern Virginia's line at Fredericksburg. Despite suffering enormous casualties the Federal troops under Meade were able to temporarily penetrate the Confederate line and for a time represented the North's best chance of winning the Battle of Fredericksburg. The fighting on this southern portion of the battlefield, later named the Slaughter Pen, produced 5,000 casualties and five Medal of Honor winners.

The Slaughter Pen Farm was considered to be the largest remaining unprotected part of the Fredericksburg battlefield. It is also the only place on the battlefield where a visitor can still follow the Union assault of December 13 from beginning to end. Nearly all the other land associated with Union attacks at Fredericksburg—either on the southern end of the battlefield or in front of Marye's Heights—has been degraded by development. The $12 million acquisition of the Slaughter Pen Farm at the Fredericksburg battlefield has been called the most ambitious nonprofit battlefield acquisition in American history. (Source)
 

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Hi Scifan.. - well, I will not be as helpful w/ your question above; I've been into Fredericksburg three times over the years, but for only a couple of hours - this last time we arrived on a Saturday and there was a huge festival in the historic district - could not even find a parking place. I've not really explored the older/restored buildings in that location but I suspect that there is still evidence of the fighting that took place in that battle - there was in the town of Gettysburg - about the best that I can say - maybe a local native will 'chime in'?

Concerning preservation, the quote below is about all that I can provide, i.e. looks like a goodly amount, especially around Marye's Heights has been lost forever. We skipped the visitor's center this time, so might have been updated on the acreage preserved (and that now gone). Dave :)
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It's good to hear of the efforts to preserve these historic battlefields. It's a shame, though, that the very high cost of obtaining these lands, $12,000,000 for Slaugher Pen Farm, undoubtedly mean that preserving all of the remaining important Civil War battlefields will never be fully realized.
 
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It's good to hear of the efforts to preserve these historic battlefields. It's a shame, though, that the very high cost of obtaining these lands, $12,000,000 for Slaugher Pen Farm, undoubtedly mean that preserving all of the remaining important Civil War battlefields will never be fully realized.

Yes, the expense is almost prohibitive when in competition w/ land, shopping, & residential developers - for those interested, the Civil War Trust has saved more than 41,000 acres of land in 20 states - often takes rich donors, matching funds, etc. to put together the needed money to buy this land - below is a map of some of their efforts (click the link for specific listing state by state) - I've been a long time member of this organization and have probably sent in a half dozen donations (usually a $100) over the years - my last two (which I mentioned previously) were to preserve Robert E. Lee's Headquarters @ Gettysburg and to obtain land at Champion Hill in Mississippi (an important battle for U.S. Grant before the surrender of Vicksburg). For those who may be enjoying this thread and love Civil War history, then join in! Dave :)
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