Originally Posted by Tinman

This is getting absurd. Circular logic anyone?

The iPad wifi does not have built-in GPS. End of story. EVERY app will need WiFi in order to try to come up with location info from Skyhook. Look it up.

No app is going to make it work like it has a true GPS chip contained within.

Michael

I disagree. The whole point is that if you can establish your location using GPS, there is no need to access Skyhook. End of discussion.

Originally Posted by RAC

Originally Posted by Tinman

This is getting absurd. Circular logic anyone?

The iPad wifi does not have built-in GPS. End of story. EVERY app will need WiFi in order to try to come up with location info from Skyhook. Look it up.

No app is going to make it work like it has a true GPS chip contained within.

Michael

I disagree. The whole point is that if you can establish your location using GPS, there is no need to access Skyhook. End of discussion.

<sigh>

The WiFi iPad has NO GPS. This thread is about the WiFi iPad so "GPS" doesn't even apply. And the WiFi iPad, and 3G iPad in the absence of a GPS or cell signal--and all other iOS devices--DO use Skyhook when they find you using the Maps app. This is not opinion; it is fact.

Skyhook Wireless, provider of the Wi-Fi Positioning System (WPS), today announced Apple is using its technology for the new Wi-Fi location positioning feature in its Maps application on both iPhone and iPod touch. Using WPS, iPhone and iPod touch users can now locate themselves in the popular Maps application with the tap of one button.

That has been the case since the original iPhone got location services--yes via Skyhook--before any iOS device even had a true GPS chipset. And yes it is still true today.

Skyhook: Who We Are > Contact Us

So my point still stands: no app is going to make the WiFi iPad locate you while on a highway away from any WiFi networks. That is a fact.



Michael

So you are saying that it is impossible to approximate your current position based on IP addresses received from local WiFi hotspots?
Back in the 20th century people said that it was impossible to beat that sound barrier....

Originally Posted by matt_90036

So you are saying that it is impossible to approximate your current position based on IP addresses received from local WiFi hotspots?
Back in the 20th century people said that it was impossible to beat that sound barrier....

This is getting hysterical.

Are you aware that that is EXACTLY what Skyhook does? It uses registered WiFi locations to provide location services. It says that right in the quote and link I supplied. What is so difficult?

Maybe I should have included a quote or a link... oh wait I DID. lol


BTW: I see you are in Sydney Australia. Yes, Skyhook has that covered so you have used it if you had your WiFi iPad locate itself.



Michael

Originally Posted by Tinman

<sigh>

The WiFi iPad has NO GPS. This thread is about the WiFi iPad so "GPS" doesn't even apply. And the WiFi iPad, and 3G iPad in the absence of a GPS or cell signal--and all other iOS devices--DO use Skyhook when they find you using the Maps app. This is not opinion; it is fact.

We are probably at cross purposes here.

I would like to use an external GPS (e.g. Bluetooth) with my WiFi iPad in conjunction with an app that that has it's own maps on board and does not need to download them.

Apple has made the assumption that maps would always be downloaded so that if you don't have a mobile service you have need use for GPS.

This is a circular argument at the moment because there will be few such apps while WiFi iPads remain sans GPS. On Windows Mobile, for example, there are quite a few GPS/mapping applications.

I would love to be able to run such apps on the larger screen iPad.

I am really quite disappointed that the WiFi iPad lacks GPS and can't connect to a Bluetooth GPS (without JB).

Originally Posted by RAC

We are probably at cross purposes here.

I would like to use an external GPS (e.g. Bluetooth) with my WiFi iPad in conjunction with an app that that has it's own maps on board and does not need to download them.

Apple has made the assumption that maps would always be downloaded so that if you don't have a mobile service you have need use for GPS.

This is a circular argument at the moment because there will be few such apps while WiFi iPads remain sans GPS. On Windows Mobile, for example, there are quite a few GPS/mapping applications.

I would love to be able to run such apps on the larger screen iPad.

I am really quite disappointed that the WiFi iPad lacks GPS and can't connect to a Bluetooth GPS (without JB).

OK first I apologize I thought you were the OP and under the assumption you could get GPS location services with just the WiFi iPad.

A couple of things... While many GPS apps, such as the built-in Maps app, rely on on-the-fly downloading of map data there are others that do not. Navigon and TomTom for instance load all map data to the iOS device. The catch though, is that not all GPS apps will install on the Wifi iPad. GPS Drive and MapQuest, for example, will install. But Navigon will install (TomTom would not).

And it is possible right now, of course via jailbreaking, to add a more robust bluetooth stack in order to connect to an external GPS. This is really not all that difficult, and there are a few videos out there of it in operation. Here is one:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yU6raDM3TY[/ame]

One person, presumably not jailbroken, modified the TomTom car kit to fit the iPad (crudely ) and then was able to use its GPS ro run Navigon.

If I can get an external GPS for dirt cheap I might actually try that.



Michael

Originally Posted by Tinman

This is getting hysterical.

Are you aware that that is EXACTLY what Skyhook does? It uses registered WiFi locations to provide location services. It says that right in the quote and link I supplied. What is so difficult?

Maybe I should have included a quote or a link... oh wait I DID. lol



Michael

and it is getting extremely annoying that i keep on repeating that the original Maps app does not work without being CONNECTED to a wireless network.
skyhook works very well when you are connected. i have pointed it out several times that i want to get location on a map WITHOUT being connected to a WiFi spot and ONLY by detecting its IP address. if you don't understand what i am asking about simply don't respond or ask politely. Responding rudely just speaks of your culture, wherever you are from...

Originally Posted by Tinman

And it is possible right now, of course via jailbreaking, to add a more robust bluetooth stack in order to connect to an external GPS. This is really not all that difficult, and there are a few videos out there of it in operation.
Michael

Thanks, this is enough to make me think seriously about a Jail Break. Is possible to upgrade after doing this or should I wait for iOS 4.2?

Originally Posted by matt_90036

and it is getting extremely annoying that i keep on repeating that the original Maps app does not work without being CONNECTED to a wireless network.
skyhook works very well when you are connected. i have pointed it out several times that i want to get location on a map WITHOUT being connected to a WiFi spot and ONLY by detecting its IP address. if you don't understand what i am asking about simply don't respond or ask politely. Responding rudely just speaks of your culture, wherever you are from...

No, I'm merely frustrated because I'm trying to explain but seem to be getting nowhere.

For one thing, wanting to use IP addresses in the same sentence as not being connected to any WiFi network makes no sense. You don't see the IP address till you actually connect. And the router, hence gateway IP that is registered might be miles away. Locating by IP address is the least accurate of any location methods. But wanting to use that without even being CONNECTED to anything makes it pointless to even bring up.

Fortunately you don't need IP address. MAC address is what is primarily used by WiFi location services.

Now WiFi location services does not need you to be actually connected to any of the WLANs the iPad can see ... which is often more than it will show as available networks to join. Even secured WLANs are used because you can still get MAC IDs from them--which is what it needs to work. There are people all over the world right now, doing nothing all day but driving around scanning for WiFi networks--but not connecting--to gather the MAC addresses and correlating that with GPS coordinates.

In fact I can connect my iPad to my iPhone via MyWi (a hot spot app). The MyWi hotspot is not registered with Skyhook et all so does not help the iPad get its location. But if I am in range of OTHER WiFi networks my iPad GPS apps can still locate the iPad from the data it obtains from those not-connected WiFi networks. However, iPad can't use that data on its own.

In this case the iPad is using the INTERNET connection from MyWi to transmit the MAC IDs, signal strengths, etc., of nearby WLANs in order for the backend server to do its work. Again, I was not connected to any of the WLANs that were used to locate me. Yet it pinpointed me.

So what you are asking to do is, to me, obviously impossible: yes the iPad can still detect WiFi networks and obtain MAC IDs of nearby WLANs without actually connecting to them.... But if it cannot connect to the Internet to do anything with that data it is pointless. WiFi location services depends on an Internet connection.

I can't make it any clearer. But good luck with that quest.



Michael

Originally Posted by RAC

Originally Posted by Tinman

And it is possible right now, of course via jailbreaking, to add a more robust bluetooth stack in order to connect to an external GPS. This is really not all that difficult, and there are a few videos out there of it in operation.
Michael

Thanks, this is enough to make me think seriously about a Jail Break. Is possible to upgrade after doing this or should I wait for iOS 4.2?

It's possible to upgrade when 4.2 comes out, but the jailbreak will be wiped out. You will have to re-jailbreak... and might have to wait for a 4.2 jailbreak if it is not out by then.

I was jailbroken on 3.2.2 but went back to 4.2 beta because most of what I wanted is in 4.2 (mainly background operation and the task switcher). I do miss somethings though: SBSettings and a few others... and now I'm really wanting that bluetooth stack. So I do intend to jailbreak when it is available for 4.2 (and I tried on the beta! lol).

Looks like you can get an external bluetooth reciever for around US $40 and on up. That is less than the price difference between WiFi and 3G iPads. I was going to exchange my WiFi iPad for a 3G--and it was only for the GPS. I use MyWi to feed the internet to my iPad when out of WiFi range.

And while carrying around another device can be a pain, there are benefits too: GPS runs on the reciever's own battery so less drain on iPad, can position the unit for better view of sky, if windshield tint in automobile blocks GPS signal can place receiver by rear window, possible better location fix, etc.


Michael